Skip to main content

What about that Foucault?

Wondering what the best arguments are for including Foucault, and for not including Foucault.
Has that been the biggest fight about who people think should be included?

Anonymous (not verified) Sat, 09/10/2022 - 07:53

The arguments for including Foucault are weak, in my opinion. Yes, some anarchists read him, Yes, some anarchists reference him. But far more anarchists read and reference Marx than Foucault, and no one (I hope) is arguing for Marx to be in The **Anarchist** Library.

My argument for not including Foucault would be he never even used the A word.

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 13:54

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Regardless of whether anarchists reference Foucault, his work has impacted the thinking of many, and his imprint on current anarchist analysis of power is clearly evident. I could see including him simply to encourage anarchists to read more primary sources and examine works that undergird their thinking, particularly those they are unaware of. If one can argue for the inclusion of Deleuze, I can’t fathom why Foucault should be excluded, and in some sense Marx. Both have a much larger impact on contemporary anarchist analysis and thought. Whether this is for good or ill is a whole other question, but feigning ignorance or avoiding direct engagement with their texts seems a poor response.

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 18:12

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

> feigning ignorance or avoiding direct engagement with their texts seems a poor response

No one is feigning ignorance or avoiding direct engagement. Those texts aren't being scrubbed from the internet. There's already a Marxist library for Marxist texts. Including Marx, Foucault and Deleuze in The Anarchist Library is unfathomable to me.

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 20:14

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

The writing of (especially young and late) Marx certainly seems just as, if not more relevant than self-described anarchists like Ruth Kinna or Cindy Milstein.

Anarqxista Goldman (not verified) Wed, 12/28/2022 - 10:44

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Do you know who else never used the A word? Max Stirner. Do you know who only ever used the A word negatively? Friedrich Nietzsche. Yet if you go to The Anarchist Library right now and check out the "popular texts" you'll find both in the top 100 if not the top 50. You'll also find me [at least last time I looked] but don't let that put you off.

In short, if the criteria for inclusion in an anarchist library come down to inclusion of certain words in their texts then we, as anarchists trying to build a body of useful knowledge, are cutting off our own noses in order to spite our own faces.

rocinante Sun, 09/11/2022 - 18:50

There are actually six texts by Foucault already posted to the library. Before some on social media (specifically Twitter) took to creating a huge virtual uproar over a misinformed tweet from someone who hadn't even read Foucault previously, the library had like one or two texts by them already posted. There have been a few more since then, but this is not to say all the texts by Foucault will be posted to an **anarchist** library, as one of their larger texts was just tabled - but, conversations are continuing, like right here for example.

I don't think Foucault has been the biggest fight about what to include on the library, but certainly one of the more vocal and supportive one's. A large part of this, or perhaps all, seems to be coming from outside the project by Twitter users (friends of friends perhaps?) that really seemed to make the discussion into a larger debate. The biggest "fight" as the original Anonymous commentator called it, has come from the inclusion of some ITS communiques from when they still called themselves anarchists. Another big one often pointed out by critics is the inclusion of a certain Black Seed text (issue #6). Not that any of this was ever really enjoyable to talk about and work on, but over time it has especially become less and less interesting to talk about the often stale rehashed critiques of old played out over drama that has settled to the bottom.

On a more lighthearted note: at the 2021 NYC Anarchist Bookfair - the library tabled a zine with Foucault cover, but the inside text was a large font version of navy seals copypasta. If you were lucky enough to get a copy, congratulations.

 

Some references:

Michel Foucault author page (6 texts currently):

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/author/michel-foucault

and

Michel Foucault topic on the library (11 texts currently):

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/category/topic/michel-foucault

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 18:55

In reply to by rocinante

Was Nietzsche contentious as well? I mean, Twilight of the Idols is in there, and I’ve heard Nietzschean used as a pejorative in more than on @ space.

When the anarchist, as the mouthpiece of the declining strata of society, demands with a fine indignation what is “right,” “justice,” and “equal rights,” he is merely under the pressure of his own uncultured state, which cannot comprehend the real reason for his suffering — what it is that he is poor in: life. A causal instinct asserts itself in him: it must be somebody’s fault that he is in a bad way.

Also, the “fine indignation” itself soothes him; it is a pleasure for all wretched devils to scold: it gives a slight but intoxicating sense of power. Even plaintiveness and complaining can give life a charm for the sake of which one endures it: there is a fine dose of revenge in every complaint; one charges one’s own bad situation, and under certain circumstances even one’s own badness, to those who are different, as if that were an injustice, a forbidden privilege. “If I am canaille, you ought to be too” — on such logic are revolutions made.

al (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 22:21

In reply to by rocinante

I mean, you have ted k and shit as well. your defensiveness and weird political line are fucking offputting and are a reason why I don't recommend new anarchists actually check your site

Anonymous (not verified) Mon, 09/12/2022 - 06:23

In reply to by al (not verified)

> I don't recommend new anarchists actually check your site

WAAAAH

Ted K called himself anarchist. Foucault, despite living in a time and place where every other person was throwing around the A word, never once used it himself.

To continue the comparison, Ted K wrote directly to the anarchist publications Live Wild or Die, Earth First! Journal, Anarchy: Journal of Desire Armed, Green Anarchist Magazine and Green Anarchy Magazine. These are the sources of most of Ted K's writing in the library.

> weird political line

The only line I see here is 'the anarchist library is for anarchist writing.' What's weird about that?

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 19:45

Fuckeault ain't bybaby stretch the most questionable author to put on T@L... not at least to be deserving a spexific thread here? There's plenty of texts by authoritarians and some dogshit anarcho-adjacent Leftists, and even quasi-Far Rightists.

I don't think T@L's purpose is to be purely anarchist, but to have texts that are of relevance to anarchists.

Anonymous (not verified) Mon, 09/12/2022 - 06:24

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

> Aragorn! and Bellamy both flirt with the far-right often

No, they don't. They've literally never done that. Not even once.

Anonymous (not verified) Mon, 09/12/2022 - 17:00

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Lay off the fartbong, pleb. There's a laundry list. Bellamy had a podcast called "Liberty and Logos". Aragon recorded multiple episodes of his podcasts with right-wing libertarians, including the editor of a white separatist rag. Everyone knows this. Stop trying to rewrite history to give better PR to these guys

Anonymous (not verified) Mon, 09/12/2022 - 18:17

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Oh, it's you.

> Bellamy had a podcast called "Liberty and Logos"

And? That was Bellamy arguing with a centre-right (not far-right) Brit guy for half a dozen episodes. Did the word liberty trigger you? I don't recommend reading any French anarchists then. Certainly not the Bonnot gang.

> Aragon recorded multiple episodes of his podcasts with right-wing libertarians

Could you please link us to this secret stash of A! podcasts that you've been listening to?

There was one podcast where he interviewed that Attack the System guy. He didn't air it because the conversation was weak. Is that what you mean when you said 'often flirting with the far right'?

Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 10/20/2022 - 13:31

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Aragorn! hasn't, but Bellamy was into Liberty & Logos with that Alt Right crowd, and I won't forget the waves of White supremacists on his Twitter page.

Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 12/29/2022 - 11:58

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

> but Bellamy was into Liberty & Logos with that Alt Right crowd, and I won't forget the waves of White supremacists on his Twitter page.

And by waves I mean... one person. B had maybe a hundred followers on Twitter, if that.

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 19:46

"bybaby" ===> "by any"

Funniest soft typo in a while tho!

Buttdarling Sun, 09/11/2022 - 22:15

Power concedes nothing without the demand - so where is M. Foucault's demand?   Build some better prisons?  People citing Foucault approvingly are all happy in the present power-structure without exception. Anarchism should be made of sterner stuff.

Anonymous (not verified) Sun, 09/11/2022 - 23:39

In reply to by Buttdarling

Critiquing Foucault with Frederick Douglass? Geez, so stern!

"Power concedes nothing without the demand" is the type of shit you hear on MSNBC. I laughed at your post.

Anonymous (not verified) Mon, 09/12/2022 - 01:56

In reply to by Buttdarling

Zerzan must be very confident in his readership’s lack of familiarity with the subject matter in question. The abundance of citations and names dropped is more of a liability in this essay than a strength. An attempt at legitimization that falls flat due to a lack of context and numerous misrepresentations. I’ll give him Derrida and Foucault, to a degree, but one can’t help but wonder if he’s actually ever read Lyotard or Lacan.

Buttdarling Tue, 09/13/2022 - 02:33

Lyotard might be the most use to us out of this bunch but thats not saying much. Anti-communism is only as credible as long as it sticks to the facts.

And as for Lacan - If Freud is the answer then what is the question?

I note the worlds loudest Lacanian is a state-terrorist ( S. Zizek )

Anonymous (not verified) Fri, 09/16/2022 - 03:17

Not commenting on all that but I personally wouldn't mind Foucault because his analysis on power, surveillance, etc. I find very useful even if he isn't explicit A.

Anonymous (not verified) Fri, 09/16/2022 - 12:34

In reply to by Buttdarling

I don't even like Foucault and I'm baffled by this insistence on including his writing in The ANARCHIST Library (especially when his writing is already archived all over the internet) but, honestly, Judge Buttdarling's moralizing makes me wanna upload his entire oeuvre to the front page right now.

giraffe (not verified) Fri, 09/16/2022 - 15:58

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

Nah you’re right he’s definitely fucked up, I won’t argue that. I’m also pretty sure he isn’t the only author published who is fucked up? (citation needed) I should say, however, that since I submitted ‘Discipline and Punish’, I have an interest in seeing it published.

The primary reason I uploaded it to the library was mostly for accessibility because the copy on the Internet Archive doesn’t allow for screen readers. The other reason is for his analysis on punishment as an extra mechanism for power to exert itself. I think this book is 5/5 and needs to be read by all anarchists.

Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 10/20/2022 - 13:51

In reply to by Librarian (not verified)

- It "needs" to be read as this is worthy and workable analysis of how systems of control works within the institutions of *our current world*, not in the world from 100 years ago. Imo anarchists who missed it might be missing the

- About his defense of pederasty: this has to be seen in its context. You could say the same of Apio Ludd/Wolfi who wrote a much, much clearer apology of pederasty, where Foucault was mostly just observing it from a sociological lens and avoiding to take position on it (at least in his writings). Foucault was also one of the most prominent advocates in his time of what is called today LGTBQ. At least, if you wanna dismiss him on these bases, you might wanna do the same to Alfred Kinsey, who was from a similar standpoint yet more liberal.

- Good luck with using call outs on dead authors to solve sexual deviances in your world, including your close milieu. It might protect the kids (tho from the persons in charge of them, who knows) but won't help in any way to fix the minds of these people, or help them fix it.

- Zoomers gotta put in their minds that THERE WERE PEOPLE LIVING ON THIS EARTH BEFORE THEM and history didn't start in like 2010. These people before you have known different ways to deal with problems such as abuse and deviances.

Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 10/20/2022 - 13:53

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

"anarchists who missed it might be missing the theoretical skills to even recognize authoritarian dynamics in their surroundings."

Anonymous (not verified) Thu, 10/20/2022 - 16:46

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

- About his defense of pederasty blah blah blah

- Good luck with using call outs on dead authors to solve sexual blah blah

Foucault is not in the *anarchist* library because of those moralizing reasons, he is not in the *anarchist* library because he is *not anarchist*. He never even used the word.

- blah Alfred Kinsey

Also not in the *anarchist* library. Can you guess why? Hint: nothing to do with children.

- Zoomers

Where?

Anonymous (not verified) Wed, 10/19/2022 - 17:55

hello i am a twitterer and i have an anime avatar and i am a nietzschean and a communist somehow and i hate nihilists except nietzsche because like i said i am totally a nietzschean anyway i made a tweet about foucault on my twitter and 2434 twitterers clicked on the heart button which means i am a big deal now and i have come to make a big deal about foucault and 2434 twitterers agree with me so you have to do what i say because thats what direct democracy is like in rojava ps ted kaczynski bad

Anonymous (not verified) Fri, 10/21/2022 - 17:55

In reply to by Anonymous (not verified)

hello i have been waiting for 24 hours now and i have got no attention from people on this platform not one heart click or anything so from now on i am sticking to twitter where i can see the numbers going up and up ps more foucault pls